Once Saved Always Saved?

The question is often asked: Can a person, once saved, ever lose their salvation? The short answer is: NO. The Bible clearly and unequivocally teaches that a person who was truly saved and converted is eternally secure in that salvation and will never lose it. This is referred to as the Eternal Security of the Believer, Perseverance of the Saints or “Once saved always saved.”

We are going to discuss a lot of material here, so this will be a longish post. We will look at the key passages that support this doctrine; we will look at how Security of the Believer flows naturally from other things we know about Salvation; we will look at at some arguments made against the doctrine and finally we will look at why proper understanding of our security in Jesus Christ matters so much.

First, let’s look at some Scriptures which teach us about the Eternal Security of the Believer.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.

Romans 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Hebrews 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Simply tossing around Bible verses does not necessarily prove anything; out of the proper context, any verse can be used for most any proof. We always have to make sure we quote verses in the full context in which they appear. That would include the context of their chapter as well as the overall story of the Bible. They must be placed in the proper linguistic, historical and cultural context to be fully understood. Simply placing the above verses in the context of things we learn elsewhere in the Bible, it is clear that they teach that one’s salvation can never be lost.

If we look at the security of the believer in terms of why we needed to be saved in the first place, it simply makes no sense to propose we could lose our salvation once it is ours. Remember, we do not need to just be saved from our big sins, or our really heinous sins; we need salvation for all of them big or small. God is perfect and Holy, we are imperfect and sinful. Because God is perfect, any imperfection separates us from Him. We owe a penalty for our sin, big or small, which we can only pay by our death. Read the post on that subject here.  If we could lose our salvation for some sin, then the question immediately comes up: for exactly WHAT sin or sins could we lose it? The obvious answer is easy to come up with. Any sin separated us from God in the first place. If we could lose our salvation for some sin, then likewise any sin would take it from us.

Remember Romans 6:23? “The wages of sin is death .” That statement is not graded on a curve. It is all inclusive for all sin. The payment is due from each of us. And it’s not paid on the installment plan. This penalty is either paid, or it’s not. If one has not accepted Jesus’ payment for it, then it is not paid. However, of one has accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior, then it is paid.

We also understand that our salvation is by Grace and not by works. We know that we do not make even the smallest contribution to the obtaining of our salvation. We discussed that quite fully in this post.

If our salvation is 100 percent obtained by grace, then it is also 100 percent maintained by grace. If no works of any sort help us attain salvation, then conversely and obviously, “bad” works, lack of works or substandard works could not possibly cost us that salvation, right? If we don’t work to get it, then why would we have to work to keep it? There are substantial numbers of people who would agree that initially, salvation is by grace but that we must then maintain it by our works.

If Salvation did have to be maintained by works, then the immediate question is:  Exactly WHAT are the works requirements that must be met  in order to keep it? It is the same problem as determining exactly what sin could cost us our salvation. There is simply no list of rules given anywhere is Scripture. Actually, there is a list and it is quite simple. Any sin separates us from God, and no works restore us. Anything else is just what we, humans, have added. We are going to dive into that topic later in this post.

The Apostle Paul addressed that very mindset in Galatians 3:3 “Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?”  Paul informed us in that verse, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that it is simply foolishness to think that we were saved by Grace but needed to maintain it by works.

Perhaps the biggest argument against the Doctrine of Eternal Security is that it somehow becomes “a license to sin.” In other words, one can become saved and then go out in the world and do whatever one chooses with no consequence. After all, one’s sins past, present and future are all forgiven.  Technically, that is a true statement. Technically a truly saved person, no matter how far they might backslide, is still forgiven and heaven bound.

Sadly and to the discredit of churches today, we do much to foster this skepticism about the Doctrine of Eternal Security. We have pews full of people who only darken the doors of a church for an hour on Sunday morning, then barrel back to the outside world and conduct themselves just like, or worse than, the rest of the world.  This same group of people justifies their behavior by resting on some claim that they are saved, so..”I’m all good, I’m saved and heaven bound. Jesus has forgiven me so it’s cool.” This is a classic case of the tail wagging the dog.  Salvation is not about getting a ticket to heaven punched. God truly, deeply loves us and offers us the gift of salvation, but salvation is not about us! That’s Joel Osteen talk for sure. Read my post on just who worship is for and why we are saved here.

A quick summary is in order here. God was not sitting around in Heaven lonely one day and decided to create humanity to alleviate His loneliness. God is self existent and self sufficient and has no need for us whatsoever. God does not save us so that He can fill some empty void in His existence. We were only created for His honor and glory in the first place. In fact, the entire plan of redemption formed before the beginning of time was simply to declare God’s glory to the universe.

The point of this is God does not save us “for” us. He saves us for a purpose and a reason, and the reason is not us.  The most notable Bible passage on salvation based on grace not works is of course Ephesians 2:8,9. Where people go wrong, however, is they stop there.  Because right after God makes it clear through the Apostle Paul that works don’t save us, He goes on to tell they whys of our salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

That’s just a start. There are numerous passages that teach us the a true saving faith will produce fruit(works). These are merely a few.

James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,  Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,  Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:22.23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

1 John 3:6-9 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The Apostle Paul answered the question about Eternal Security being a permit to sin very directly in Romans 6:15-23. This question is far from a new one.

Romans 6:15-23 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Clearly, salvation is not a permit to sin at will. God said that in His Word. Also, clearly, God has expectations of us once we are saved.

Not only does The Bible teach that grace and security are not a permit to sin, but Christians should keep in mind that we all face a judgment one day.  Understand clearly that a truly saved person will never face judgment for their sins; the issue of Heaven and Hell is decided only in this life. Believers will, however, be judged at some point in time for how they lived their lives for Jesus Christ while they were alive. The ultimate goal of every believer at the Judgment should be to hear the same words the  good steward heard in the Parable of the Talents which Jesus told, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

Let’s take a look at this judgement believers face. We learn in Romans 14:10-12 as Paul wrote to the Roman believers, that we will all stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ and account for how we lived our lives for him. Since we aren’t going to be judged for our sins what then is the purpose of this judgment? The judgment believers face is to determine our rewards we will receive for the things we have done for Jesus while living. One of the best descriptions of what will happen can be found in 1 Corinthians 3:10-17

What we receive are crowns for various services we have rendered on behalf of Jesus Christ during our lives. Descriptions of these can be found in several places in Scripture: 2 Timothy 2:5, 2 Timothy 4:8, James 1:12, 1 Peter 5:4, and Revelation 2:10.

Not only do saved believers face a judgment later for their works, but we also need to understand that we do not necessarily escaped unscathed in this life for the things we do wrong. We escape the eternal punishment for our sins due to our salvation, but not the earthly consequences for them. The things we do on this Earth affect our lives on this Earth.

God Himself may discipline us. Notice the difference between punishment and discipline. We are free from the eternal punishment for our sins: past, present and future. Like a good parent, however, God will chastise and discipline us in order to bring us back in line with His desire for our lives.

Hebrews 12:6-8 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.   If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

God disciplines us as His children; if fact, if He does not discipline us then we are not actually His!

Sin has earthly consequences which are not necessarily handed out by God, but just the natural outflow of our actions. King David is one of the finest examples of actions and consequences we can find anywhere in the Bible. Only a very few people would even try to make a case for David being unsaved; there is almost universal agreement that as we speak, David is in Heaven with The Lord. Yet, we all also know the truly terrible sins David committed at one point in his life. We all know the story of his adultery with Bathsheeba and his murder of her husband Uriah. David certainly was forgiven by God for those sins, but if one reads the full story of his Kingdom it is easy to see that the consequences of what David did set the stage for many things.

  • The rape of his daughter Tamar by her half brother Amnon and Amnons subsequent murder by Absalom. 2 Samuel 13
  • Absalom’s banishment from the house of David and partial restoration. 2 Samuel 14
  • Absalom’s later rebellion against David. 2 Samuel 15-19

Just a casual reading of this story and it is easy to draw the conclusion that David’s failure as both a father and husband led ultimately to some very serious consequences. One might even say that his other son Solomon behaved in some of the ways he did due to the example set by his father David.

To sum up the above, eternal security in our salvation is not a license to run out and sin all we want to. I heard a preacher say once, “Since I got saved I sin all I want to;” the audience grew silent and he then stated, “but I don’t want to.” Let’s recap quickly.

  • True saving faith and salvation will produce works, or fruit
  • We will all be judged for the quality of our works.
  • God will discipline and chastise us for our actions
  • We still face earthly consequences for the things we do

The whole idea that the Doctrine of Eternal Security is no more than a license to sin in probably the single biggest argument that is used to counter the doctrine. As we can see, the argument is simply not a valid one. Other than that, there are numerous Scripture verses used as “proof texts” to support the idea that we can lose our salvation. Several years ago, a family member had an interesting conversation with a person who believed one could lose their salvation. When challenged by the family member for some proof, the person in question quoted Job 1:21, saying “The Lord giveth and The Lord taketh away!”  That may be the single most absurd argument for being able to lose salvation that has ever been spoken. Not all of these arguments are that absurd, however; some seem to make sense on the surface. Let’s look at a few. It will only be a few, as there are many.

Some scriptures that speak of earthly chastening are used to teach believers can lose their salvation.

1 Corinthians 11:29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body.

Romans 13:2  Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 

The word damnation in those verses is not referring to “anathema”, or death in Hell, but “krima”, referring to earthly judgment

There are those passages that refer to a believer being called home by God because of committing the sin unto death. This, in context, refers to physical and not spiritual death.  1 John 5:16 and 1 Corinthians 3:17 both refer to this.  The fornicator in 1 Corinthians 5 was in danger of committing it and the believers in Corinth participating in the Lord’s Supper unworthily and Annanais and Sapphira all committed it. Nothing in context suggest these were unsaved people, but people being called home by physical death so as not to ruin their testimonies.

Some verses dealing with evidence or proof of salvation are used to illustrate a person losing their salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:22,23 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

1 John 2:3-5 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

James, in particular, is used to support this idea. But in the context of the overall concept of salvation not being by works, it is made clear that the above verses are referring only to the evidence of salvation.

Some verses used to show the possible loss of salvation simply refer to someone who never had it in the first place.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Some say that not those who say “Lord, Lord” enter heaven but only those who “doeth the will of my Father” enter heaven. In other words, works are needed to stay saved. Just note, however, what Jesus said. He said, “I never knew you.” To understand the full context of the above passage, it is necessary to read the entire passage in question. Read Matthew 7:15-23.  The overall context in the passage is referring to false prophets and teachers who ran around claiming to belong to Jesus, but in fact never had.

The above passages are but a few that seem, on the surface, to support the idea that a person can lose their salvation. Like all of our Bible interpretation efforts, we have to perform this one correctly. Context, language, history and culture all have to be considered when assuming a position or interpretati0n.  All of these things taken together, along with Scriptures supporting Eternal Security, clearly show that the Doctrine of Eternal Security of the Believer is, in fact, completely Biblical. Now, the only question remains is: Why is it so important?

The Doctrine of conditional salvation, or that one can lose their salvation, is a product of Satan himself. I am not saying that those who believe it are of Satan; I am saying the thought is from him. Why would I say such a thing? Allow me to briefly explain. First, let’s take a look at the following passage:

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

In that passage, Paul was speaking to saved believers. What he was passing along from God was that we are to put on our helmet, and that helmet is the helmet of Salvation. He simply meant that Satan desperately wants us to be in a constant state of doubting our salvation. Paul was teaching us not to be distracted by those doubts, but to live secure in the assurance of our status as reconciled children of God.

Why does Satan care? The basic reason is that if we rest assured that our salvation is secure, then we can move along to the work God really wants us to do.  If we spend our entire lives in a mad scramble to stay saved, then that is all we can do. I hate to sound repetitive, but it’s not about us! It is about our works done to honor and glorify God and not our efforts either to get saved or to stay saved.

As with works based salvation, works maintained salvation becomes about men rather than God. God has laid out the conditions that must be met for salvation: repentance toward God and faith in His Son Jesus Christ. Any other rules are not God’s rules, they are man’s rules. Who makes any such list of rules and conditions necessary to maintain salvation? Some person, of course. When we follow rules set by man, we begin to abandon God’s guidelines as revealed in His Word. When we do that, we begin to follow men rather than God; worse, we begin to follow ourselves. And that is what got us into trouble in the first place way back in Genesis Chapter 3

Are you saved? If you are, rest assured that your salvation is secure for all eternity. Quit worrying about what you have to do to keep it, and get busy doing the works God has actually called you to do.

Are you lost? Understand that this security can belong to you as well. Admit you are a sinner. Agree with God that He is right and you are wrong. Turn from your sin. Believe that Jesus paid your due penalty on the cross, and accept Him as your Savior and Lord today. Then, pick up your cross and follow Him.

Advertisements


Categories: Christianity

92 replies

  1. There is a really good and timely article about the connection between The Reformation and the recover of the doctrine of assurance here: http://thecripplegate.com/the-reformation-the-rediscovery-of-christian-assurance/

    Liked by 1 person

  2. I agree that a person who has truly accepted Jesus into their heart has eternal security and does not need to worry in the least about their salvation. This does not mean perfection because grace (Jesus) is a life long teacher who teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and how to live Godly lives (Titus 2:11-12). It is a process whereby we grow from faith to faith (Romans 1:16-17). There is no condemnation to those WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit…(Romans 8:1). In other words, we are going to make mistakes.

    However, as written in Hebrews 8:29, for a person who has been sanctified (set apart as holy) to trample the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant a common thing, and has insulted the Spirit of Grace, to think they can continue that path and still receive eternal salvation is greatly mistaken. It is not because God is rejecting them, but because they are FREELY rejecting Him. They are NOT losing their salvation, but are making the choice to give it up.

    Were they truly saved or apostates who had tasted the goodness of God? That is not my call to make.

    Even Jesus said, in Luke 12:45, “But if THAT servant (the faithful and wise servant of verse 42) says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.”

    In the context of the above verses, Jesus, in verse 32 says, “Do not fear, little flock, for it is the Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom…verse 35, “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning. The key words are DO NOT FEAR. For those who keep their eyes on Jesus, they have nary a thing to worry about concerning their salvation.

    To sum it up… If a person is playing church, they are treading on dangerous territory. However, if their focus is truly on Jesus, even though they mess up along the way, they can stand on the words, “DO NOT FEAR, LITTLE FLOCK.”

    Sorry to write a book here, but I agree with you that salvation is eternal. I also agree with those who believe that such doctrine, without something to clarify, gives people this idea that they can do what they want and still have salvation. This was even taught by Jude, ” 4 For certain people have crept in unnoticed [just as if they were sneaking in by a side door]. They are ungodly persons whose condemnation was predicted long ago, for they distort the grace of our God into decadence and immoral freedom [viewing it as an opportunity to do whatever they want], and deny and disown our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

    Liked by 2 people

    • Thank you for the book! I am going to read this some more as I have some thoughts and will holler later as time permits. Just some thoughts not a ripping argument lol. Thanks for commenting

      Like

    • If Jesus said “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish” he meant exactly that – those with Christ granted eternal life will NEVER perish. If voluntarily ‘giving up’ one’s salvation means ‘perishing’, did Jesus lie?

      Liked by 1 person

    • Hey Patrick the only thing I really feel compelled to add to this is that the issue of eternal security as a license to sin is covered fairly well in the post. Thanks for commenting and Blessings.

      Like

  3. Yes, a longish post, but a good treatment of the issue at hand. Being old and all, I’ve had many a discussion about OSAS/eternal security/perseverance of the saints, etc. and just about all of the scripture in this post has been trotted out in defense of God keeping whom He saves. At the end of the day, in order to break it down as simply as possible (my final answer & being old and all)), I turn to one of the sections of scripture mentioned in this post: John 10: 27-30

    “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one.”

    Setting aside for a moment the matter of being “plucked/snatched” from the double fisted hand of God v. ‘voluntarily jumping’ out of God’s hand, consider only Jesus’ words “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish.” The words plainly say that the one who has eternal life shall never perish. It might be the case that someone thought he had eternal life, but if he wakes up in Hell it must have been an erroneous thought, at least according to Jesus’ own words.

    At the same time, we should ask the question “When does ‘eternal’ life begin? We are told in John 3:18 that:

    “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.”

    While that passage does not specifically state that “eternal life begins when you believe”, however if the term “condemned” means the same as the word “perish”, eternal life does in fact begin when a sinner repent and believes in Christ.

    While OSAS is technically true, it carries a lot of negative baggage along the lines of “If OSAS is true, you can do whatever you want (sin all you want) and still end up in heaven.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. I must respectfully disagree with the thought that a person is always saved and secure in his or her salvation. It is possible to give that up or to lose it if we chose to return to the worldly ways. It isn’t just a matter of saying “well, if they were truly committed to salvation, they wouldn’t return to their sinful ways.” The devil is a powerful enemy of God with great temptations on earth.

    He can entice a soul back to sin in an instant if he hits them in a weak moment, and he does so often. That’s why we need to be on guard against the advances of Satan. God gave us free will to follow Him or not. We choose to become Christians and we can decide to leave Him if we want to. God will not make up our minds for us. Our names are entered in the Book of Life when we join in the body of Christ, but if we leave and stay away, our names can be removed from the Book. And I believe firmly that’s what the true context of the scriptures teach…

    Steve

    Liked by 1 person

    • My question would be then what sin or sins would cause us to lose it? Where is the line? As far as walking away on our own? If God has sealed us we won’t. If we can then we never were

      Like

      • The scriptures are very clear as to where the line is. The line is marked by “habitual sin” which the Bible refers to as sowing to the flesh, living according to the flesh etc. It is not a matter of which or what sins as that is a red herring argument. Sin is sin no matter how great or small. A Christian who willingly and chronically disobeys God has no assurance of salvation. That is why Paul warned the believers in Rom 8:13 that if they live according to the flesh they will die and experience spiritual death.

        Liked by 1 person

        • No, Evan, it is not a red herring argument. It is a valid question. I totally agree that sin is sin no matter how small. That is why we are saved by God’s grace and not our works, because all have sinned, all do sin, and all will sin.

          My question remains. So a Christian who willingly sins has not assurance of salvation? That is a problem, because every sin we commit is a willing one; we don’t every sin accidentally. So, then, we are back to any sin we commit separates us from God once again, and we have to repent all over again to become saved again. Or, we have to NOT sin to stay saved.

          That is works, not grace.

          And I think you misunderstand the Bibles position on eternal security as a license to sin, because it is not. Sin even for saved people has consequences, some perhaps serious. I actually address the pretty fully in the post.

          So, again, my question stands as is my friend. What is the line? You say the Bible is clear. Then exactly what is the point were my sin becomes habitual? Ok..I get irritated and grumpy very easy, that is actually a sin. Odds are, I won’t ever fully solve that in my life. It could be classified as habitual. Am I then doomed? Nah….I’m not, and I know that.

          Any way, that’s the question.

          Peace

          Like

          • Hi Wally – not every sin is willful. For example if I break the law and trespass on someone’s property. It’s a rural area and there are no trespassing signs displayed but i didn’t see them and continue on my stroll/hike. Did I sin? Yes. Did I do it willfully? No. However, suppose that I did see the signs and I continue on my stroll/hike anyway. Did I sin? Yes. Did I do it willfully? Yes. Suppose I do it not only once but continue to disregard the no trespassing signs and make my stroll/hike a part of my regular routine. I now not only sin willfully but also habitually.

            I agree with you that grace is not a license to sin. But if/when a believer sins, how much sin does one have to commit before it becomes licentiousness? Does grace cover licentiousness too? Not according to Rom 8:13.
            Some of the scripture references you cited do not support your position in my opinion. In Jn 3:36 the two clauses contain two different Greek verbs – pisteuo and apeitheo – more accurately translated as believes and disobeys. Both belief and obedience are requisite for eternal life. In Jn 5:24 the word “believeth” is a present tense Greek verb so it should be translated as “believing.” Hence it refers not to a one-time moment of belief in the past but one must go on or continue believing in order to possess eternal life. The assurances of Jn 10:28-30 only apply to those sheep who are hearing and following (present tense Greek verbs). Therefore, believers who do not continue to hear and follow are not assured of eternal life. Also no where in Rom 8:35-39 is sin listed as something that will never separate us from the love of God as sin does indeed separate us from God so you have eisegeted this passage instead of exegeting it. If vss.35-39 did include sin in the list then it would contradict Paul’s warning in v.13 but we know that the scriptures do not contradict each other. Hence Paul’s warning still applies that believers face the consequence of spiritual death if they choose to live according to the flesh.

            Are you doomed if you are habitually irritated and grumpy? Only you can answer that question. Depends how you define it – do you curse your wife and kick your dog when irritated/grumpy? – just kidding :). The Bible does not only speak to loss of rewards but also loss of eternal life as Paul warned. I would prefer neither of these consequences. As you know, one has to reconcile all of the scriptures in order form doctrine.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Nah…I kiss the dog and wife both

            🙂

            Like

          • But….for now let’s just say we don’t agree. Please keep reading and commenting in the future. Fair?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Indeed; may it be so Wally. You’re a good guy and we can agree to disagree.

            Liked by 1 person

  5. Steve,
    You are logical in your thinking that if a person chooses out of a natural free will to follow Christ, that person must be able to reverse course and by the same free will choose to quit following Christ. That would work for every religion on the planet except for Christianity. The natural man has freedom of choice, but that is not the same thing as ‘free will’. The Bible says that human will, after the fall, was corrupted by sin to the extent that the ‘natural’ man hates God and is in rebellion against Him, by ‘nature’ a child of wrath. Read Romans 8:7-8 and Ephesians 2. If the natural man cannot do anything to please God (Rom 8:8), man in his natural is unable to naturally choose Christ. That would please God. Something to think about. See what the Bible says about the ‘nature’ of fallen man. I leave you with a really good quote:

    “[The] term ‘decide’ has always seemed to me to be quite wrong…A sinner does not ‘decide’ for Christ; the sinner ‘flies’ to Christ in utter helplessness and despair saying —

    Foul, I to the fountain fly,
    Wash me, Saviour, or I die.

    No man truly comes to Christ unless he flies to Him as his only refuge and hope, his only way of escape from the accusations of conscience and the condemnation of God’s holy law. Nothing else is satisfactory. If a man says that having thought about the matter and having considered all sides he has on the whole decided for Christ, and if he has done so without any emotion or feeling, I cannot regard him as a man who has been regenerated. The convicted sinner no more ‘decides’ for Christ than the poor drowning man ‘decides’ to take hold of that rope that is thrown to him and suddenly provides him with the only means of escape. The term is entirely inappropriate.”

    – D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones (1899-1981)
    taken from: Preaching and Preachers, Zondervan, 1972, pp. 279-280.

    Liked by 1 person

  6. Speaking of logic:

    The man who says that God alone saves and says that God keeps (preserves in the faith) those He saves, is thinking logically.

    The man who says that man is ultimately saved by a free will decision and says that by that same free will can walk away from his faith is thinking logically.

    The man who says that man is ultimately saved by a free will decision but could never lose his salvation is a mental schizophrenic because he is saying that at salvation you lose your free will.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Good points Dan. And also at Steve here. I don’t profess to understand the full relationship between free will and God’s sovereignty. Who can right? And I really don’t want a huge debate about as that is ever my say grade lol. The overriding point of this post is one that I don’t want to lose. Works never save us only the grace of God does. We don’t work to get it and we don’t work to keep it. It is that security and our understanding of it that frees up to concentrate on God’s will for our lives rather than a constant striving to keep ourselves secure and saved

      Like

  7. Your proof texts for eternal security to begin your article are in their proper contexts, not supportive of the teaching of eternal security.

    Jn 3:36 actually reads: “The one believing on the Son has eternal life, but the one not obeying the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” The Greek word for “believing” is pisteuon which is a present tense verb. Therefore one must go on, or continue to believe in order to have eternal life. If one ceases or no longer continues to believe, eternal life is no longer possessed. Belief is not limited to a one-time decision is the past to “accept Christ” but must continue beyond that. In the second clause of this verse the KJV translates the Greek word apeithon (present tense verb) incorrectly as it actually means not obeying instead of not believing – two different words. Thus believing and not obeying are equivalent terms in this verse as eternal life is only possessed by those who are believing and obeying. Belief in the scriptures is linked with obedience – two sides of the same coin as the latter demonstrates the former. No obedience can result in no eternal life and thus no eternal security.

    Jn 5:24. Hint: whenever you see the “th” endings in the KJV, add an “ing” to the end of the word as these are present tense Greek verbs. Thus one must go on “hearing” and “believing” to have eternal life. If one ceases to hear/believe; no eternal life.

    Jn:27-30. In proper context, the promises of vss. 28-30 are predicated on the conditions set forth in v.27. Eternal life, never perishing and not being plucked out of the Father’s hand are only promised to those sheep who are “hearing” and “following” (again present tense Greek verbs) the Shepherd. No assurance is ever given to those sheep who are disobedient; who do not hear and follow.

    Rom 8:35-39. Notice that this passage calls upon all believers to persevere and overcome – tribulation, distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword. And in doing so, nothing shall be able to separate us from the love of God. This passage however does not list ongoing sin in the life of a believer as that which cannot separate us from God’s love. In fact Paul warns the brethren in Rom 8:12-13 “Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Paul warns that habitual sin without repentance as evidenced by living according to the flesh in the life of the Christian results in spiritual death.

    Heb 10:39 This verse reiterates that perseverance for the Christian is necessary. One must persevere in faith as opposed to “shrinking back.” Only believers can be said to shrink back from the faith as unbelievers were never of the faith to begin with and therefore unbelievers have no faith to shrink back from. Only those believers who do not shrink back are saved from perdition/destruction. Those that do, face perdition/destruction.

    1Pet 1:5. Indeed we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation. However the pertinent question is how does the scripture in this passage define faith? In v.5 – faith “unto obedience.” In v.7- faith through “trial.” In v.14 faith as “obedient children.” In v.15 faith as in “be holy.” A saving faith is an obedient faith.

    Properly interpreted, the common denominator in all of the passages you have cited is that obedience is requisite for eternal life. Both Scripture and converse logic dictates that no obedience in the life of a believer results in no eternal life and contradicts OSAS teaching.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Well…I only have one question, as a protracted debate in this issue won’t accomplish much.

      How are you saved? If we are saved 100 percent by the Grace of God, then we are also kept by that same Grace.

      If you believe and teach that we must work to maintain our salvation, then grace is not in effect. You are basically saying that God needs our help to save us and keep us saved.

      Other than that, a debate in this issue is not something that interests me, as an accurate reading of Scripture clearly shows that what you say is incorrect.

      But, peace to you

      Like

      • You can choose not to reply to my explanations as to how the passages that you initially cited are not evidence for OSAS and in fact support the opposite of what you hold to be true as that is certainly your prerogative. However, as we both know the scriptures do not contradict each other and all of the scriptures must be reconciled with each other in order to form correct doctrine. You write that what I say is incorrect but may I ask how so? Iron sharpens iron so I am not above admitting that I am incorrect if you could show me how where I am wrong in regards to the passages you have offered. Otherwise, you need to reconcile those passages with what you believe.

        You and I both agree that grace is not a license to license to sin. Where we disagree is whether the practice of sinning without repentance results in believers still being saved or not. You are also correct in stating that we are 100% percent saved by the grace of God but I believe the scriptures are replete with the teaching that saving grace as properly taught in the scriptures, requires both belief and obedience as I have demonstrated with regard to the passages you initially cited. In other words, we are kept by grace as long as we live lifestyles that can be characterized as obedient. No where in the entirety of the OT or NT is God’s forgiveness and grace imparted to those who are disobedient and rebellious. A saving faith is an obedient faith. People forget that it is actually a covenant with God that imposes requirements on both parties to the covenant. God is always faithful to his covenants with man but as the Bible repeatedly shows, man is not always faithful to God.

        If you believe that “belief” on our part is the sole requirement for obtaining eternal life why does Heb 5:9 say this? “…and having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all those obeying Him….” Notice this verse doesn’t say believing – it says obeying (Gr. present tense verb). If only belief were necessary as you claim, this verse would not have the word obeying. This verse is consistent with what I wrote before in that both belief and obedience are necessary for salvation.

        I believe that you are earnestly in pursuit of the truth regarding the scriptures as am I. I would encourage you to reexamine your view. I used to believe as you do as that is what I was taught. I took me several long years to change my view when I began to study the scriptures for myself and to my surprise had to admit that I was wrong. Thus from my own experience, I know that it is harder to unlearn what I was taught and I was resistant to it but I couldn’t deny the plain reading of the scriptures.

        May you be blessed with understanding; peace brother!

        Liked by 1 person

        • Hey Evan

          I don’t mind replying, but I really don’t seek heated debates with other believers in here either.

          First, a question? Why is this doctrine so dear to you?

          Also, if no works save us, how can any lack of works unsave us? What exactly would cause us to lose it? What sin? Where is the line and who makes that decision? If I get mad at my wife for no reason, that is sin, am I lost unless I manage to repent before the stress of getting mad causes me to have a heart attack and die?

          We are clearly taught that ANY sin separates us from God. Therefore, in theory, any sin would cause us to lose our salvation.

          Read this link and peace

          https://truthinpalmyra.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/jesus-paid-it-all-and-the-payment-was-forever/

          Like

          • Wally, I don’t see any heated debate going on between us as you have been respectful in our short discourse as I hope I have also been. We can always agree to disagree; no problem.

            This issue is of importance because it can potentially affect one’s salvific state. If you believe that a genuine believer cannot lose his salvation but you are incorrect, then what you teach on your blog could potentially mislead others into a false sense of assurance believing that they are secure in their salvation when in fact they are not. By the same token, if I teach others what I believe and those who hear me put into practice what I believe, then the worst that could happen to them is that they live obedient lives led by the Word and the Spirit. In a “worse-case” scenario, which view do you suppose carries the most risk and negative consequences – yours or mine? I believe yours does so you cannot afford to be wrong. God holds us accountable for what we believe and more so for what we teach and impart to others – a sobering thought.

            While works do not save us, they are the outward evidence of our inward faith. That is why James wrote that we are justified by works and not faith alone (Js 2:24) and faith without works amounts to a dead faith (Js 2:17). Works simply reflect whether our faith is alive or dead. Therefore your statement regarding lack of works may be a spiritual thermometer indicating that such a person’s faith could in fact be dead.

            You bring up a good question as to where does the line gets drawn regarding sin. Any sin does in fact separate us from God so your premise is correct; however, your conclusion that any sin causes us to lose our salvation is incorrect. I would advise you to read the book of 1 John.
            We know that we all sin and no one is without sin (1 Jn 1:8,10). When we confess our sin, God forgives and cleanses us (1 Jn 1:9). However, those assurances are only given to those believers who are “walking in the light” (v.7). Verse 7 is constructed as a conditional clause indicated by the word “IF.” “If” we walk in the light (the condition) then the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. Conversely, if we are not walking in the light, then the blood of Jesus is not promised to cleanse us of sin. Christians who do not walk in the light and instead walk in darkness do not even have fellowship with God (v.6). These scriptures teach that when believers whose lives can be described as walking in the light occasionally sin, then upon confession, God forgives their sin. Forgiveness is not promised to those who walk in darkness as evidenced by habitual sin in their lives. Any sin does not disqualify us but habitual sin does.

            Later on in Chapter 3, the Apostle John contrasts Christians who walk in the light with those who PRACTICE SIN. Those Christians who practice sin, practice lawlessness (1 Jn 3:4). Those Christians who practice sin are of the Devil (v.8) ESV. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning (v.9). “Little children, LET NO ONE DECEIVE YOU. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous (v.7) ESV. “…whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God….” (v.10).
            It is evident from what John wrote that Christians are expected to be obedient and practice righteousness. Those that practice sinning are no longer children of God but are instead children of the Devil. Habitual sinning without repentance leads to spiritual death and that is why the doctrine of eternal security is unbiblical.

            Liked by 1 person

          • You are right Evan, nobody is being ugly here, and I thank you for that very much. I just like to toss out early that I won’t go there. I am beyond being ugly with fellow believers. I have made that mistake and I regret it much.

            I absolutely agree that a saved soul produces fruit. I also agree that a person who professes salvation with no change whatsover may simply be speaking words with their lips, and is likely not saved at all. I agree that habitual sin as a way of life is highly problematic in the life on one who claims to believe. My wife has a great quote, “We shouldn’t judge, but we can certainly be fruit inspectors.” I like that LOL.

            There are dangers in your position also.

            One, our lives can easily become a constant mad scramble to simply do enough works to remain saved, rather than what God likely really wants us to do.

            Two. Your application of what you believe is quite reasoned and on the surface might seem ok to someone hearing it. However, the doctrine of Conditional security is quite dangerous in that, intentional or not, it plants in the minds not only that lack or works an cause us to lose our salvation, but that conversely we must work to get saved. “If I have to work to keep it, I must work to get it.?

            Again, if we have to do anything to secure us in God’s grace, then grace is of no effect and the death of Christ was in vain.

            Peace

            Like

  8. Thanks for your input Wally. I agree with you that a potential danger with my position is that one may drift into legalism and focus on works. Therefore it is always prudent to first examine one’s motivation in doing a “good work” to determine if it is self-will or God’s will that one should do something. If it is the former, then it is a work of the flesh which accounts for nothing. It is also important that we distinguish what kind of works we are talking about as the former is referred to in the scriptures as works of the law or works of human righteousness (Gal 2:16; Tit 3:5) while the latter are works of faith/obedience (Matt 5:16; Jn 9:4; Eph 2:10; Acts 26:20; Rom 2:7). No where in the entirety of Scripture is the latter condemned but people tend to lump in everything and condemn obedience as works-based which I think only adds to the confusion.

    Regarding your second point: ““If I have to work to keep it, I must work to get it.?”
    Our works do not “get” or obtain our salvation as salvation is solely made available through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ. Thus, we both agree tat we did not work to “get it.” The more pertinent question is must we work to maintain it? The thinking behind unconditional security is that since salvation is a free gift then any works done on our part nullify God’s grace. However, that logic falls short in many instances I can think of. For example, I choose to give my child a car to use for college, I graciously gave it to him for free. Yet, can I not stipulate certain conditions upon him in order for him to keep the car? I can for example mandate that he work at keeping good grades in college in order to for him to keep the car. In the same way, I do not see any problem with God by his grace giving me the gift of salvation but mandating that I must walk in obedience to him in order to keep it. If I instead choose to rebel and not follow him, I of my own accord make God’s grace to no longer be of effect in my life.

    Finally, the idea that God bestows his grace to his children without condition seems to be contraindicated by a few Biblical examples. God’s grace was bestowed to Naaman but he had to first dip himself in the Jordan to be healed of his leprosy. God’s grace to the Israelites was given when the Jericho walls came tumbling down but they had to march, blow trumpets and shout before it happened. Noah found grace/favor in the eyes of the Lord (Gen 6:8) but his and his family’s saving grace was conditioned upon his construction of the ark. If Noah had not been obedient and followed through with the ark, he and his family would not have been spared. Throughout the Bible, God has mandated obedience from his children. Unlike the OT, grace is now freely available through the sacrifice of his Son to make it possible for Christians to obey.

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hey Evan. Even though I suspect we have reached an impasse here I did want to say that your last sentence is very appropriate and probably captures the essence of this whole issue quite accurately.

      I hope you will continue to visit. I notice your blog is private? Do you allow readers?

      Like

      • Hi Wally – sorry I don’t have a blog as I suspect it would take up too much of my time. It was nice discussing this issue with you though as I learn new things when I converse with others.
        May the Lord bless you and watch over your coming and your going!

        Liked by 1 person

        • Ah…Yessir, they do take time LOL. Well, you come visit anytime, I enjoyed our conversation!

          Like

        • Although I actually agree with you. Let me ask you.

          If soneone gets saved and dies 10 minutes later. Is it fair that they go to heaven all the while you have been saved and had 20 years to lose your salvation? Does that person just get lucky to have died without going through any temotations and tests?

          Like

          • Hi Josh thanks for coming by

            Who is that question for?

            Like

          • Josh,

            This is a great question, mind if I answer?

            Using only human understanding, a good case could be made that someone finding salvation 10 minutes before dying while someone else dying to self for decades gets the same reward isn’t fair but there is scriptural support for exactly that. Look at what Jesus told the criminal who hung on the cross next to him.

            To turn it around a bit, let me ask you this. What if someone had been saved for only a week before death then was told, “sorry, you’ve done well but you really didn’t do your time.” Would that be fair?

            Again, this was a great and thoughtful question, thanks for asking.

            James

            Liked by 1 person

          • I’m not sure I understand your point. Forst of I always assumed that sin was judged based on the light a person has. James said he that kniws to do good and does it not TO HIM it is sin. And anything that is done without faith is sin. Jesus told the Pharisee that because they say “we see” their sin remains. 2 peter says It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life. Philippines says work out your own salvation woth fear and trembling. Romans says Yes, people sinned even before the law was given. But it was not counted as sin because there was not yet any law to break.

            I believe that sins of the heart are greater than sins of the flesh. I believe that inly God knows the heart and that is what you will truly be judged by.

            Philippines 2 new living (kjv says the same thing)
            12 I don’t mean to say that I have already achieved these things or that I have already reached perfection. But I press on to possess that perfection for which Christ Jesus first possessed me. 13 No, dear brothers and sisters, I have not achieved it,[d] but I focus on this one thing: Forgetting the past and looking forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on to reach the end of the race and receive the heavenly prize for which God, through Christ Jesus, is calling us.

            15 Let all who are spiritually mature agree on these things. If you disagree on some point, I believe God will make it plain to you. 16 But we must hold on to the progress we have already made.

            17 Dear brothers and sisters, pattern your lives after mine, and learn from those who follow our example. 18 For I have told you often before, and I say it again with tears in my eyes, that there are many whose conduct shows they are really enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 They are headed for destruction. Their god is their appetite, they brag about shameful things, and they think only about this life here on earth. 20 But we are citizens of heaven, where the Lord Jesus Christ lives. And we are eagerly waiting for him to return as our Savior. 21 He will take our weak mortal bodies and change them into glorious bodies like his own, using the same power with which he will bring everything under his control.

            Now I don’t see how anyone could honestly read that part of the letter from Paul and be afraid to die in their sins if they truly love jesus.

            Romans 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

            39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

            But let me rephrase my question: you get saved and you die 10 minutes later, so you go to heaven. However if you would not have died you would have no doubt slipped up 3 weeks later and committed adultery a damnable sin and died in the mist of the act with a heart attack. You go to hell because you never got a chance to repent. I would just call this unlucky damnable salvation because had you died before this act, you would have been saved.

            Jesus said that whoever looks at a women as already commited adultery in his heart.

            Lets look at David.

            psalm 51:17-19

            17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

            18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

            19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

            God’s real desire has always been that there be no sin to make it necessary for sacrifices to be offered. David is saying that crimes like his are not to be forgiven by animal sacrifices, that the law does not provide sacrifices to atone for deliberate murder and adultery. He realizes he is at the mercy of God as his judge; and mercy must cone from His grace and not His law. The law could only kill. It could not forgive transgressions of its precepts or give life unless perfect obedience to it was rendered

            Do you believe that if David died during his adultery as much as he loved God with his whole heart and sang all those 50 psalms to him before this time he would be going to hell? Only God knows the heart of a man.

            It even seems like the dispensation of grace was in affect at the time of Davids life as well. Had it been a normal person they would have been put to death but since David is the King he gets Grace?

            So what’s is with all this dispensationalism if David gets just as much grace as the church?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Josh,

            There is a lot going on here so I want to cut through it all and make sure we are on the same page, OK?

            Is it your belief that a saved person is condemned if they commit a sin? I believe that is what you think but I could be wrong.

            James

            Liked by 1 person

          • Thanks James….I had the same question

            Like

          • And it’s cool to see you back around

            😊

            Liked by 1 person

          • Good to be back although I don’t have time to be around as much as I’d like, I do miss the interaction.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Yeah and I’m swamped today so thanks for jumping in

            Liked by 1 person

          • I think if Josh read the post he would see the answers he is looking for though. It was pretty thorough I thought

            Liked by 1 person

          • Let me ask you this. I am saved. I know it’s wrong to commit adultery but I do anyway and while I am humping away in wilfull sin, I have a heart attack and die. Where do I go?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Hi Josh

            Again thanks for coming by and thanks for your questions. It seems this topic concerns you a lot, so I am going to try to help out with an answer.

            First, if you have read this post thoroughly, I think you know how I am going to answer your question. So, my answer will be a simple one. If you want a more complicated and detailed look at all of the issue, re reading the original post would likely help.

            Short answer. If you are truly saved….you would go to heaven. When we repent of our sin, are forgiven, saved, and indwelt by the Holy Spirit it is not a temporary things. All our sins past, present and future are forgiven, and that is never revoked or taken way.

            Do we suffer consequences for the things we do? Yes, indeed we do. First of all, committing adultery may very well ruin your life, and God is not bound to protect you from that, and He likely won’t. See my discussion of David’s sin in the post.

            Second, we are rewarded in Heaven for the works we have done here on this earth. While not punishment for sin, doing things as you described would certainly impede our works for our Father here in this life. Let’s be honest, if you are having adulterous affairs, you likely aren’t working too hard for Jesus, right?

            Now, your turn. What is your perspective..what motivates your question?

            Blessings, Wally

            Like

          • I am not exploring this issue to justify any sin whatsoever. I am single and have not had any fornication for the last 6 years. Come close but overcame by grace. however the fact that I even came close means I already had done so in my heart. So what’s the difference eh? I believe people are judged by the light that they have. Jesus says if you are blind then you have no sin but if you see your sin will remain.

            But let’s get real specific….

            The issue I just absolutely cannot get passed is wilful sin. As much as I would like to believe in eternal security… and not to justify sin but just wanting understanding what the bible actually says. There are way more verses in the bible on how to KEEP your salvation than not. Grace is a free gift, yes. but the bible says that 1 cor 10:13 that God will not allow a person to be tempted anymore than they can bare. And he will always provide a way out. So I suppose for some that could mean RUN and for others like martyrs, the only way out I suppose is death. Jesus says that if you deny Him he will also deny you. So for things like this I could see a weak person being forgiven but what about a person strong in their faith?

            let’s get even more real…..

            EVERYONE knows absolutely that fornication is a sin. specifically though, for the MATURE christian that understands that by doing this you are denying Christ. You are disobeying the verse that said IF YOU LOVE ME KEEP MY WORD…Oh how plain is the scripture in your mind Fornicators will NOT inherit the Kingdom, while you are thinking about committing this act? THEN, you are basically thinking in your mind “I will ask for forgiveness later, I can get away with his because Grace. Eternal security.” These are not your thoughts, these are thoughts of Satan. Satan comes to steal. Steal what? Could it possibly be your eternal security? Why else would he be doing this? This is what OSAS does to someone. You cannot snow God.

            Be ye a hearer of the Word and not a doer deceiving your own self.

            People will deceive themselves in their mind with thoughts like “this is more than I can bare” thinking they are going to snow God. You will be convicted even while you are humping away with thoughts “stop” “you shouldn’t be doing this” but then you have thoughts like “too late, I have already sinned” but these thoughts are REALLY only to deceive God because. When you are having sex it takes time and during all this time a christian will be convicted. If a child of God is not convicted then they are not a child of God in the first place.

            Then when you are done, you won’t really repent right away. Sure you will ask for forgiveness but it cannot be real. Because you already planned on doing this before you committed the sin. Then you try to make it real. your pride will take over and you will make yourself suffer for a few days. Like this is going to show God that I am sorry but really the entire time all this is taking place, you are really trying to deceive God so he will accept your apology even though this may not be going through you mind. You are still just deceiving your own self.

            Now later on, one can wake up really repent like I have. but during all this time if you die, how in the world are you not dying in your sins? I guess it is because God knows the heart and sins of the heart are different than sins of the flesh. Or maybe it is because someone prayed the prayer in james where you can ask God to forgive someone sins or give them repentance as long it is not the sin unto death. But hey, let’s be honest, that has gone through my mind to. “I’m probably extra covered because my mom prays for me.” Sad isn’t it?

            When a mature Christians that understands and has tasted like the bible says. Isn’t it like blaspheming the Holy Spirit when the mature Christian decides to commit a sin on purpose, premeditated, Are you not becoming exactly what Jude says…. “For certain people have crept in unnoticed who long ago were designated for this condemnation, ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into lasciviousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.”

            I mean like it or not when you choose to commit a big sin like this (and I know that you would say that all sins are the same. But that cannot be when you are judged by what you know and understand) I think this is exactly what you are doing. If a Christian really believed that this act could send them to hell verses being able to get away with something. Wouldn’t it change things?

            I am really just trying to understand how all this works.

            Another example would be this. I smoked cannabis for 6 years. I have grown up a Christian in a Holy Ghost filled church. I never really read the bible for myself because I was just one of those christians that new I was saved so whatever. I knew verses, confession, prayed in tongues, ect. I was naive. I won’t get into it but in a nutshell later on I had a “religious experience” by myself on the internet while I was reading about mk ultra conspiracy theories and discovering how much symbolism was in todays music. I was reading a forum on God like productions website where women were on there talking about how they were abused to the point where they had no idea who they were and didn’t know how to get free. It was absolutely heart breaking. Someone started talking about Jesus and in that moment I started tearing up and said out loud. “Jesus you’re real” and at that moment, It felt like a band broke around my head. I was free. I was free from cannabis. I started sweating, my stomach was burning on the inside that lasted for at least a week. I had no idea what was going on. At that point I was convinced that I was never saved in the first place. At the same time though I was also hit with a lot of fear, like the rapture was about to happen or a tribulation. I was calling my friends trying to witness to them, I even ran outside and witnessed to the trash guy lol. People thought I was going crazy and I kind of was to be honest. I had no idea what to do with this experience. I am not going to get into it but long story short after about 5 months. I heard a preacher talk about how smoking was not going to send you to hell. And I slowly but surely started to crave it again, I started smoking cigs instead of cannabis but kept on talking myself into how I was exactly the same person I was before even off cannabis and that it really wasn’t a big deal. I even started thinking that what happened to me was just weird and thought I went crazy because when that was happening I really had not got a lot of sleep and was not eating very much because I was so immersed in everything I was reading online about the music industry. I eventually started smoking again and when I started I pretty much quit pursuing God. I had not stopped believing but I had just talked myself into thinking that what I was doing was not sinning. Even though I was doing it regularly and it was a habit. Which is clearly against what Paul says and Jesus says to stay sober. And I was still convicted each time I did it but continued ignored it with lies I told myself. And to be honest with you I still don’t really see how cannabis could send a saved person to hell when it is no different than any other habit. I even used the verse where paul talks about keeping it between me and God and not really telling other people that I was doing it. This is how I justified it. I would smoke and put on the Justin Timberlake album “Justified” (okay that part was just a joke that popped in my head just now hah)

            I didn’t mean to get into all this but just to continue a year or so later, I had a women e-mail me. It was a women I barely know but we were talking about the bible, the holy spirit, and I was asking a lot of questions using scripture being my normal self and challenging people’s thoughts just to see what they thought about certain issues. Like I always did. it was not a very long conversation but she e-mailed me the next day and basically said.

            “So many times I see your face when I pray, and I am aware of the compassion that rises in my heart when I stand before the Father. I am encouraged to know that you read your Bible. And I am aware that you are searching. Many questions, many questions. I know there was a point in your innocence when God called and you answered. A point of trust that was pure and childlike. Time and experience can taint the vision. But, He changes not. Many things you experienced should have never been. But God is bigger and the blood is an all sufficient sacrifice. I was reading this past week …

            Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
            Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
            Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

            and it struck me “I never knew you.” My heart breaks. It is a call on the heart, “I am knocking.” “Let me come in and be intimate with you.” Relationship is sometimes confused with works. I have been guilty here. I do not want to stand before Him and hear, “I never knew you.” His request is always present.”

            And when I read that I got struck with absolutely powerful conviction. I knew it was the Holy Spirit talking through her because how could she know “I know there was a point in your innocence when God called and you answered.”? I mean, that was the experience that I just talked about above. I knew inside I had a decision to make. I chose to stop and get back into pursuing God. I know what happened was God’s grace but what if I decided not to stop and just keep on deceiving myself. Can you honestly say that I would still be going to heaven? I still don’t see how cannabis is a big deal. I mean when I first started smoking it, I would smoke and read the bible and it actually got me fascinated with the bible because it made me see things differently. I know for a fact that I would never stop believing in Jesus. I would have just been choosing to live with this habit that kept me from drawing closer to God simply because I had grown up to be taught that it was wrong and my heart was condemning me. nevertheless though, the bible says to stay sober. And sin when it is finished bringeth forth death. It causes the heart to grow harder and harder to the point where a person could be denying Christ.

            And this is the reason why I have been trying to figure out what real grace means. I know that with this Lord Lord verse people will say that Jesus was talking to already unsaved people. but uhhh…..yeah…i’m not so sure.

            I obviously do not think I have committed the sin unto death because otherwise the war between the spirit and the flesh would probably not be going on. but what if I had died during this time? Anyone who goes to hell has been deceived but at what point does the person deceive himself and actually choose death verses being saved by grace? This is the the real question I am getting at. The bible says that the devils believe in God. So there must be more to Grace than just believing. And remember the bible also says that. “If anyone causes one of these little ones–those who believe in me–to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.” I don’t take the word “little ones” and just apply it to Children but also to baby Christians. Christians who desire the sincere milk of the word so that they can grow. And teaching people that you can sin and still go to heaven usually will cause them to stumble much more easily and when they stumble in sin they will not be desiring for more milk to grow but will instead have itching ears to sin. You can talk about how bad sinning is all day, how it will ruin your life and what not but for a lot of people it still keeps the gates of heaven broad not narrow.

            I am tired of all this confusion I want to know and understand what sends you to hell and what does not but I feel like this OSAS argument will never end. In one way, I feel like OSAS really frees you so you can focus on Christ and do the best you can but at the same time it also always in the back of your mind during temptation and I don’t understand how that could actually hold true because the repentance could never really be sincere. I know if in Rev God says he gives space for wicked men to repent and some of them don’t. So am I to understand that God is keeping people alive during this time he is giving them?

            I would even be okay with the OSAS message if people would actually just admit that you could possibly lose your salvation under wilful sin. if a pastor would just say the words “I cannot guarantee your salvation if you are sinning under these circumstances, so work out your own salvation with fear and trembling” Nobody teaches like that. It’s either if you sin you lose your salvation or if you sin you get way with murder. People seem to stay in one ditch or the other on this issue instead of driving in the middle of the road for some reason.

            I just realized something…….check this out….

            In 1 Cor the church at corinth, a son and his step mother were having and affair because they believed they have a superior knowledge of grace and they can commit this sin and be okay. Paul says not even the pagans would allow such a sin. And this happened because Hymenaeus and Alexander were preaching a distortion of grace that caused this to happen. Paul told the church to “hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.”

            The day of the lord is the rapture. Here are the different scriptures relating to the rapture or the day of the lord, appearing of jesus christ,

            Romans 8:19, 1 Timothy 3:20, Titus 2:13, John 14:1-3, Luke 21:36, 1 Cor 1:8, 15:23, 51-54; 2 Cor 1:14; 1 Thes 4:13-17, 2 Thes 2:1, 7; Phil 1:6,10, 2:16, 3:21; Col 3:4

            But if you read in 2 cor chapter 2 the man never died and came to repentance because Paul was asking the church to forgive the man and accept him back. So the strategy worked.

            If the man would have died in unrepentance do you think he would have went to heaven? the phrase “So that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord” is the same in all the translations.

            To have a your Spirit saved on the day of the Lord must mean to be saved from hell for the rapture was never going to happen in his lifetime or does it apply that if someone who was saved and living in sin will simply not make the rapture and go through the tribulation?

            In 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15
            14 If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. 15 Do not regard him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother.

            Does this mean the person is to remain a Christian even though he is living in sin or that they should still refer to him as a brother because they should not offend him in case he should repent because his soul is of infinite value? because….

            2 Timothy 2:25 says Opponents must be GENTLY instructed, in the hope that God will GRANT them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth,

            This implies that if God does not Grant them repentance then they are doomed.

            I will just stop now because this is a never ending subject with no clear answer.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Hey Josh

            Again, thanks for your question

            May I make a suggestion? First, read this post very thoroughly. All of your concerns are addressed very plainly. As and example, the concern about the fornicating man is specifically discussed, as is King David and his sin.Do that, and I will respond to any concerns you have, point by point. You have covered so much in your comment it’s hard to get to exactly what your concerns are.

            Second, until the end of your comment, you seem to be really relying what makes sense to you and not God’s Word. The few things you referenced really don’t address the issue at hand.

            Finally, and this would really help me understand where you are coming from. James and I have both sort of asked, but as of yet you have not really answered.

            Exactly what is your position here? On one had you seem to be saying you have gotten mature and perfect and are no longer sinning…on the other hand you seem desperately worried that you are hell bound for your sin

            Again, short answer. Yes, a saved believer who sins after salvation remains saved.

            Thanks, Josh

            Like

          • Your David argument does not make sense to me.

            David lived under the curse of the law. David was the king. If anyone else in that time had committed the sins that David committed they would have been put to death but since David was king he had plenty of time to repent and he reaped no death or sickness or judgment. He only caused other people, not him to pay for his sins.

            Eternal security whether you want to admit it or not HIS A LICENSE TO SIN. There are many christians who believe and not obey. Christians who live in wilful sin. Christians who are living a life of adultery and the bible says that a sin like that YOU WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

            Eternal security keeps the Road to Jesus broad and NOT narrow.

            Would you not say there is a difference between the Christian who does their best to live like Christ and then you have the Christian who does not care?

            I have had Christians say “yeah, I know I shouldn’t’ do that but i’ll just 1 John 1:9 it”

            All the while 1 John 1:7 says But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

            IF you are walking in the light you’re the sins you commit are cleansed. This is talking about the sins you make while you are actually trying to strive to be perfect.

            God looks at the heart. No man is perfect yet God saw Job any many other people in the bible as perfect because they were walking the light they had.

            Paul says
            Not that I have already obtained this or made already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me his own. 13 Brothers, I do not consider that I have made it my own. But one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and straining forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you. 16 Only let us hold true to what we have attained.

            Paul is saying, I definitely have not arrived to Christ perfection but I strive to get there. The bible calls us to be perfect. And the only way to do that is by walking in the light that you have.

            When you walk in the light that you have and you sin, that is when Jesus Cleanseth you from sin. And the Father sees you as perfect like Christ because you are constantly being cleansed as you sin. The word is ongoing and is only in a effect IF you are walking in the light.

            A person who has received Christ and still chooses a lifestyle of on going sex outside of marriage is not walking in the light that you have. Sure people can screw up and make mistakes and ask for forgiveness but during this time Jesus is NOT cleansing you from your sins and if you die you will die in your sins.

            So my point is. ALL Christians are being taught eternal security when in reality no man knows the heart but God. And it seems like it should be ingrained in their mind to work out your own salvation with fear and trembling and there can be no guarantee that if you are living a lifestyle of wilful sin that you will make it to heaven because sins of the HEART are greater than sins of the flesh.

            One person could die and go to heaven during the act of adultery while another person may not. We simply do not know the state of the heart.

            Liked by 1 person

          • Hi Josh

            First, David not being stoned for his sin bears no relation to the status of his salvation. Red herring. I am thinking of a post on that question at some point in the future.

            Second, you have linked physical death they being spiritually lost. The two are not connected.

            Third, you have offered no rebuttal to the specifics of my post, as every argument you have brought forward is answered in it.

            Again, I think we need to get back to your motivation here. Why is this such a big deal to you?

            Are you worried about your own status? Or are you concerned that somebody is getting into heaven you think is not deserving.

            I don’t mean to be abrupt, but what you are attempting to teach is not Biblical. The Biblical stance is clearly contained in the post.

            I therefore think your motivation here becomes central to our discussion.

            Thanks

            Like

          • I have no motivation for this post but simply to understand the doctrine of Grace thoroughly and as it should be tought. I believe the points I have made deal with very basic allowed reasoning.

            The bible says I am allowed to understand the invisible things by the visible

            Romans 1:20
            20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

            Once saved always saved.

            This is the same principle as once full of chicken always full of chicken. If you constantly eat chicken you will stay full of chicken but if you do not, you do not stay full of chicken.

            Rom 8:13
            For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

            The Greek word used here is apothnēskō And though it is used in many passages for bodily death it is also used in other passages for spiritual death and hell. Examples:

            John 11:25
            Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, G599 yet shall he live:

            John 8:24
            I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die G599 in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die G599 in your sins.

            John 8:21 (talking to the unrighteous jews)
            Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die G599 in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

            ————————————————————————————————

            Rom 6:10
            For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11
            So you also MUST consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

            MUST: Commandment

            Rom 6:16
            Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, OR of obedience, which leads to righteousness?

            DEATH OR RIGHTEOUSNESS. ONE OR THE OTHER

            The greek word used for death here is thanatos

            John 5:24
            Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

            John 8:51
            Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.”

            This can’t be talking about natural death for everyone is appointed once to die.

            John 8:52
            The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’

            Act 2:24
            God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it.

            This can be referred to both spiritual and bodily

            Romans 1:32
            Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

            In all it’s context, it must be talking about more than just bodily death.

            Rom 5:12
            Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned.

            Spiritual death.

            Rom 5:21
            so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reign through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

            Rom 6:23
            For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

            If one is eternal life then the other is eternal death.

            2Co 7:10
            For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

            If one is salvation the other is not.

            James 5:20
            let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

            1 John 3:14
            We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brothers. Whoever does not love abides in death.

            1 John 5:16
            If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask, and God[fn] will give him life—to those who commit sins that do not lead to death. There is sin that leads to death; I do not say that one should pray for that.

            Rev 2:11
            He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who conquers will not be hurt by the second death.’

            Looks like you can lose your salvation with this verse because John is talking to Christians.

            ———————————————————————————————————-

            Romans 6:20-23

            Okay now here is the end of the chapter in all it’s context is still talking about death

            For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
            But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

            BUT now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God……

            People that live in wilful sins are not slaves to God they are slaves to sin. You can only be ONE or THE OTHER

            1 Cor 15:2
            By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN

            Can you seriously in all honesty just Take verses like this and add your own interpretation to them and think it’s okay?

            Have you ever heard of itching ears?

            Again, I am not trying to justify sin or live in fear and I most certainly do not want ANYONE to die in their sins. I love for the sinner to simply be able to go to heaven if they continue in their sins. And that maybe the case for certain Christian who don’t have the same light as other Christians.

            Would not say that the very fact that there is a sin unto death in the bible tell you that not all sins are the same ACCORDING TO THE LIGHT PEOPLE HAVE.

            The doctrine of Grace should be taught with more fear and trembling not eternal security.

            Eternal security comes with conditions. If someone who is rich in wealth they are Eternally secure. If they get robbed of there riches, they lose their eternal security. There are many things a rich man can do to protect his security. Or he can be lazy and not invest or do anything wise that a wise man would do in order to protect himself. The rich man who protected his security will be secure when the thief comes to try to steal his riches. The Rich man who did nothing but keep all his cash in once account will lose all his wealth thus losing his eternal security.

            the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 BUT HE WHO DID NOT KNOW, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

            Do you not see a theme for accountability in the bible yet? Or will continue to throw away all the scriptures that don’t serve your itching ears.

            Please convince me otherwise. I really would like to be convinced of OSAS.

            Like

          • “Do you not see a theme for accountability in the bible yet”

            Hi Josh

            Obviously you have not read this post, as It makes quite clear I believe in accountability for our actions as saved believers.

            Having said that…I am pretty sure that for you to throw accusations that I feel this way because I have “itching ears.” pretty much puts the kabosh on real discourse here.

            I honestly don’t think you do want to be convinced of the doctrine of eternal security. I think like most, you want to do it your way, and earn it.

            So..you tell me? Where is the list of things I must accomplish or do in order to be saved?

            God does not want us to live in a state of uncertainty. Yet, that is what you appear to desire.

            But, seriously, the “itching ears thing” really sort of dampens things.

            So, go read this post…clearly you have not. I have NEVER advocated for any lack of accountability, even for saved believers.

            Like

          • Josh,

            Seems you’ve done a significant amount of work to convince Wally that a person can lose their salvation which makes me wonder if you really want to be convinced otherwise. If you do and you are open a full biblical explanation, read this.

            A Christian is a new creation. “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!” (2 Corinthians 5:17). A Christian is not simply an “improved” version of a person; a Christian is an entirely new creature. He is “in Christ.” For a Christian to lose salvation, the new creation would have to be destroyed.

            A Christian is redeemed. “For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect” (1 Peter 1:18–19). The word redeemed refers to a purchase being made, a price being paid. We were purchased at the cost of Christ’s death. For a Christian to lose salvation, God Himself would have to revoke His purchase of the individual for whom He paid with the precious blood of Christ.

            A Christian is justified. “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ” (Romans 5:1). To justify is to declare righteous. All those who receive Jesus as Savior are “declared righteous” by God. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.

            A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”?

            A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. “You also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13–14). At the moment of faith, the new Christian is marked and sealed with the Spirit, who was promised to act as a deposit to guarantee the heavenly inheritance. The end result is that God’s glory is praised. For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory.

            A Christian is guaranteed glorification. “Those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified” (Romans 8:30). According to Romans 5:1, justification is ours at the moment of faith. According to Romans 8:30, glorification comes with justification. All those whom God justifies are promised to be glorified. This promise will be fulfilled when Christians receive their perfect resurrection bodies in heaven. If a Christian can lose salvation, then Romans 8:30 is in error, because God could not guarantee glorification for all those whom He predestines, calls, and justifies.

            A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).

            Two common objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation concern these experiential issues: 1) What about Christians who live in a sinful, unrepentant lifestyle? 2) What about Christians who reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these objections is the assumption that everyone who calls himself a “Christian” has actually been born again. The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a state of continual, unrepentant sin (1 John 3:6). The Bible also says that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he was never truly a Christian (1 John 2:19). He may have been religious, he may have put on a good show, but he was never born again by the power of God. “By their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16). The redeemed of God belong “to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God” (Romans 7:4).

            Nothing can separate a child of God from the Father’s love (Romans 8:38–39). Nothing can remove a Christian from God’s hand (John 10:28–29). God guarantees eternal life and maintains the salvation He has given us. The Good Shepherd searches for the lost sheep, and, “when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home” (Luke 15:5–6). The lamb is found, and the Shepherd gladly bears the burden; our Lord takes full responsibility for bringing the lost one safely home.

            Jude 24–25 further emphasizes the goodness and faithfulness of our Savior: “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.”

            Although people do squabble over this, the proper scriptural interpretation is that Christians cannot lose their salvation.

            Regardless, I am curious as to why you have chosen to make this your hill to die on.

            James

            Like

          • Oh yeah, I forgot you have anger issues Wally. Please don’t take offense when I say you have itching ears. I am only stating what the bible says. Please tell exactly what 2 Timothy 4:3 means to you For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;?

            Isaiah,

            I really do want to be convinced of the OSAS doctrine. And I do believe in a form of that doctrine but what we apparently see difference in is. I believe that people can be saved as long as they want to be saved. I believe people can be deceived. And I do believe in eternal security as long as they obey. It doesn’t seem like it is that big of a deal to keep your security as long as walk in the light that you have.

            The very fact that the bible says that God will not allow you to be tempted more than you can bare says that you have no excuse. I am not saying that a Christian who sins loses their salvation right away. I am saying that sins of the heart are greater than sins of the flesh and I don’t see how a pastor can go around guaranteeing salvation to anyone who believes. It just sounds like itching ears to me.

            You say

            “God would have to go back on His Word and “un-declare” what He had previously declared. Those absolved of guilt would have to be tried again and found guilty. God would have to reverse the sentence handed down from the divine bench.”

            I say, God would not have to “do” anything because once you get saved you do not lose your free will to turn from Him. God is not making any decisions here at all. The individual is.

            You say,

            A Christian is promised eternal life. “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life” (John 3:16). Eternal life is the promise of spending forever in heaven with God. God promises, “Believe and you will have eternal life.” For a Christian to lose salvation, eternal life would have to be redefined. The Christian is promised to live forever. Does eternal not mean “eternal”?

            I say, You cou cannot just take one scripture and say you are promised eternal life when many other scriptures involve obedience.

            You say,

            “A Christian is marked by God and sealed by the Spirit. ”

            “For a Christian to lose salvation, God would have to erase the mark, withdraw the Spirit, cancel the deposit, break His promise, revoke the guarantee, keep the inheritance, forego the praise, and lessen His glory.”

            I say, first of all this geek word seal is used in many other cases of scripture that of a normal seal which can be removed.

            Also, God says in many places and even talking to the church that he can blot out a name. He also says that ” I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” Nothing is ever set in stone here.

            After making a covenant with Abraham God told moses he was going to break it and let all the generations come through him. Moses had to intercede and CHANGE GODS MIND by telling him he would be breaking his word. How could he do such a thing. What would the people say? Ect….

            You say,

            “A Christian cannot lose salvation. Most, if not all, of what the Bible says happens to us when we receive Christ would be invalidated if salvation could be lost. Salvation is the gift of God, and God’s gifts are “irrevocable” (Romans 11:29). A Christian cannot be un-newly created. The redeemed cannot be unpurchased. Eternal life cannot be temporary. God cannot renege on His Word. Scripture says that God cannot lie (Titus 1:2).”

            “(1 John 3:6). The Bible also says that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he was never truly a Christian (1 John 2:19). He may have been religious, he may have put on a good show, but he was never born again by the power of God. “By their fruit you will recognize them” (Matthew 7:16). The redeemed of God belong “to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God” (Romans 7:4)”

            I say, Heb says “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age — 6and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance,”

            That verse 1 john 2:19 must be talking about something else because Hebrews says that A TRUE CHRISTIAN can be cut off. He does this HIMSELF and by HIS OWN FREE WILL.

            You cannot “once be enlightened” and “have tasted the heavenly gifts, ho hve shared the Holy Spirit” and “the powers of the coming age” Without being a true Christian.

            This is probably why God was going to cut of Israelites off and give everything to Moses because they did see miracles, they were enlightened and they put God to an open shame for the last time using up all of his longsuffering and patience.

            “Jude 24–25 further emphasizes the goodness and faithfulness of our Savior: “To Him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.””

            I would simply look at this scripture and say, “yes I agree” He is able to keep me if I choose to keep Him.

            I don’t really think that most churches are teaching the true love of Christ here. I don’t think the church when they are asking people to “get saved” are really explaining to people exactly what this means. This is more than just asking Jesus into your heart and believing him. Like the bible says, the devils believe in Him.

            Jesus loved us so much and what did he give? He gave everything. He emptied himself from everything he had and became like a man, and was tempted at all points.

            Now listen to Jesus’s own words here. These are Jesus’s words.

            Luke 14:26 “”If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.”

            Jesus says if you love ANYBODY more than him you are not WORTHY of HIM

            THEN he goes on to say “And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me CANNOT be My disciple.”

            Does this sound a little more umm…conditional yet?….but he is not even done. Then he continues to tell people to think about what he is asking of them.

            “Which of you, wishing to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost to see if he has the resources to complete it? Otherwise, if he lays the foundation and is unable to finish the work, everyone who sees it will ridicule him, saying, ‘This man could not finish what he started to build.Or what king on his way to war with another king will not first sit down and consider whether he can engage with ten thousand men the one coming against him with twenty thousand? And if he is unable, he will send a delegation while the other king is still far off, to ask for terms of peace.

            In the same way, any one of you who does not give up everything he has CANNOT be My disciple

            Salt is good, but if the salt loses its savor, with what will it be seasoned?

            It is fit neither for the soil nor for the manure pile, and it is THROWN OUT.

            He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

            John 14
            “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him. Whoever does not love Me does not keep My words. The word that you hear is not My own, but it is from the Father who sent Me.

            I really don’t see how what I am believing here is false? I don’t see how it is selfish or makes me afraid I am going to die in my sins. It simply keeps me more accountable and sober about the most serious issue of my entire life and that is my soul. It is the extra step some people might need to get more serious with their life and actually think for a small moment about the decisions they are making.

            I seriously grew up with everyone telling me that sin was bad but don’;t worry. I am saved and am going to heaven. They never taught me about what sin really was and what it did. I pretty much had to figure that out all on my own. I felt superior and invincible with the knowledge that I am saved and nothing can keep me away from God. If I had this knowledge that I do now, I think things would be different in my life. And when I witness to someone, there is no way I am going to just tell them “this is all you have to do to be saved”. This is why I am seeking out more light and truth on this subject.

            How can Jesus be narrow if all you need to do is seal yourself one time?

            Like

          • Josh I will leave that comment with no response as your initial comment was really not a good contribution here

            James and I have both attempted to discuss this reasonably

            Peace to you

            Like

          • And, by the way, I am truly sorry some things didn’t work out well for you, and I mean that.

            Blessings

            Like

          • I don’t know why you’re so offended. I am being very serious here with all my questions. What do you think about that verse talking about itching ears if it doesn’t have to do with the doctrine of Grace?

            It should not be this hard to convince me of ASAS. Why do I not see light an revelation in this area like you? Why are there so many more plain scriptures talking about conditions than simply believing?

            Why do the churches that teach this all live in sin? They do whatever they want, I know, I was a part of them.

            I want to know the truth and I feel like everyone is just saying I am wrong and stupid and I just don’t have the light they have when in 1 cor. this is exactly the excuse that people used before Paul had to correct them on it. Why did if need to correct the church if they were all going to heaven regardless of what they were doing?

            Is the bible this hard to understand. Do I have eyes but do not see? Is jesus blinding the truth from me?

            Liked by 1 person

          • Hey Josh let’s give it a rest ok?

            Like

          • What about when Paul was afraid of being a “castaway” did he not literally mean he was afraid of losing his soul in Hell with all the other reprobates and rejected men? When he told us what he had to do lest he should lose his soul, he wanted us to know that true security is in bringing the body under subjection as in Rom 8:13 and living right instead of living in sin everyday, as advocated by unconditional security? Gal 5:16-24

            Many shall depart from the Faith. 1 Tim 4:1

            How could they depart lest they were once literally christians?

            1 Cor 3:16 teaches and says “lest any man FALL from the grace of God.

            if any many defile the temple of God Him Shall God destroy.

            This passage can only be talking to christians as sinners do not have the Holy Spirit.

            “which have forsaken the right way and gone astray, 2 peter 2:15,16

            The greek word for forsaken is Kataleipo, to abandon, forsake and leave behind. It refers to leaving of which one had been apart of, such as a wife.

            One could not leave the right way if he had not been in the right way.

            How about 2 Peter 2:20-22

            20 For if AFTER they have escaped the pollutions of the world THROUGH the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour JESUS CHRIST, they ARE AGAIN ENTANGLED therein, and OVERCOME, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

            21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

            22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

            Are these scriptures just pure lies?

            3:14

            6 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

            17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked, FALL FROM your own steadfastness.

            Unconditional security????

            It matters not whether they were false prophets of the Jews or Gentiles the fact remain that the ones referred to had once escaped through the knowledge of Jesus Christ, that they had known the way and turned away from it later. that their latter was worse than the beginning.

            Peter said "be diligent" "BE WITHOUT SPOT, AND BLAMELESS" and "BEWARE lest they also FALL INTO SIN AGAIN AND BE LOST.

            How many examples do you need?

            The fact that ANGELS were given here as an example, showing the punishment of those who turn back into sin should be enough to understand and to prove that the ones referred to were ONCE HOLY and HAD LIVED FREE FROM SIN as did the angels at one time. (2Peter 2:4)

            Like

  9. I’m here again…can I ask you Wally where in the Bible does it specifically say that all our future sins are forgiven? I am not aware of any such scriptures? Would not Josh’s example of adultery be in direct violation to the requirement of eternal life as specified in Heb 5:9?
    You wrote: “…you likely aren’t working too hard for Jesus, right?” That would be quite the understatement. That Christian is not only not working too hard, but genuine honesty requires us to proclaim as fact that the Christian in adultery is being flagrantly disobedient and according to the plain meaning of Heb 5:9, those who disobey definitely do not inherit eternal life.

    Like

    • Well Evan, I would agree that the Christian in adultery is being flagrantly disobedient; I Certainly never said other wise.

      Of course, we won’t find a specific quote where God’s Word says future sins are forgiven. Then again, you certainly won’t find one that specifically says they are not

      This is a no brainer Evan. We are saved by grace through faith..not of works. Therefore we are also kept by grace..not of works.

      Now your turn, and honestly Evan you have sidestepped this question consistently.

      Exactly where is the line for flagrant disobedience? What transgression sends on back to hell after salvation? After all, the smallest of sins condemned us in the first place, therefore the smallest of them would revoke our salvation, correct?

      Example…I tend to get angry easy. Big sin for me. I freely admit it, and The Lord is working that. Anyway, my first reaction upon seeing this argument arise again was anger. It certainly was not justified anger. If i had fallen over dead before asking for forgiveness, would I be in Hell at this moment?

      That is a serious question Evan…what sin. Exactly. If we have to avoid certain thing in order to stay saved, then God will certainly provide the
      list. That is my challenge to you Evan; where is that list?

      My last thing is..Hebrews 5:9 proves nothing. Yep is says those who have eternal life will obey. If we are saved, and have eternal life, we certainly will obey Him. Who ever said differently? Not me. I only maintain that we will not obey perfectly in this life. Less than perfect is sin.

      Your turn Evan…wheres my list of post salvation damning sins?

      Like

      • Good reply Wally.

        I understand how this is a difficult topic but if we were to draw a line and say, that every sin beyond this point will cost you your salvation, where do we draw it; murder, rape, child molesting, lying, stealing?

        The point here is that no one is good and we all fall short of the glory of an infinitely holy God.

        If a person isn’t wholly confident that they are saved without having to rely on works or being good enough,then I would suggest they examine their own hearts. Could be they are not saved at all.

        Liked by 1 person

    • Evan,

      Thanks for stopping by and taking the time to comment.

      I completely understand how frustrating it can be to fully understand God’s grace, especially with human understanding but it can be done. I have found that it helps to think of God as a father. Fathers can be unhappy with their kids and forgive them when no one else will. If that is the case among humans, how is it not possible that an infinitely holly being can’t forgive in ways we can’t possibly understand?

      Only God knows if someone has truly and sincerely repented of their sins and given their life to Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior, but if they have, they now belong to Him forever, and their salvation is secure. The Bible says that nothing “will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 8:39).

      Remember: When we come to Christ, He comes to live within us by His Spirit — and He will never depart from us. And when we come to Him, God adopts us into His family and we become His children — and He’ll never disown us or disinherit us. If He did reject us, it would mean our salvation depends on how good we are. But we can never be good enough, for God’s standard is perfection. Our salvation depends solely on Christ, Who died to take away all our sins.

      Does this mean it doesn’t matter how we live? Absolutely not! If we live sinful lives, it may well mean that we haven’t given ourselves to Christ after all, and we’ve even deceived ourselves into thinking we are saved when we really aren’t. The Bible warns, “As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead” (James 2:26).

      Make sure of your commitment to Jesus Christ, both as your Savior and as your Lord. Then thank Him that you now belong to Him forever — and ask Him to help you live a life that reflects His love and purity every day.

      Liked by 1 person

  10. First of all, interesting comments by all posters as “iron sharpens iron.”
    God is our Father and we are his children. We must be careful however when we use human or anthropocentric examples to characterize God’s relationship with us or vice-versa. As parents, we love our children even if they do things we don’t agree with. We then tend to project our love for our children on to God, rationalizing in our own minds that He loves us the same way that we love our children. Is that what the scriptures portray? While the Father is indeed gracious, merciful and forgiving, how do the scriptures describe what constitutes a loving relationship with God?

    “Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him” (Jn 14:21).
    Only believers can be said to have God’s commandments and furthermore, only those believers who keep them, i.e. obedience are loved by the Father. The converse must also be true – that those believers who disobey are not loved by God according to this verse. The true test for believers to determine whether they are in Christ is clearly written in 1 Jn 2:5-6. “… This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
    God’s grace gives us the ability to walk as Jesus did in obedience to the Father’s will. You and I agree that it does not give us a license to sin. Believers who practice sin can no longer consider themselves as children of God but of the devil: “Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning (1 Jn 3:8). God can and will disown us if we persist in disobedience. That is why if you notice, Rom 8:35,39 mention various trials and persecution and things outside of our own selves that are not able to separate us from the love of God. However, it does not mention sin as our practice of sin does indeed separate us from the love of God. The scriptures do not contradict themselves.
    Does that mean that Christians who do not obey God were not genuine believers to begin with? No, they were believers but they fell away; apostatized from the faith. It is impossible for unbelievers to fall away from the faith that they never believed and trusted in as only those who belong to the faith can fall away with it. That is why Paul warns “By this gospel you are saved, IF you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have BELIEVED IN VAIN (1 Cor 15:2).

    Liked by 1 person

    • Hi Evan

      Thanks again. I don’t want to sound pugnacious, but I fear I must.

      Those are nice words, but they have not really addressed the question as presented.

      I think we all get that any sin, even the tiniest one, is what separated us from God in the first place, right?

      Then…if sin would separate us from Him yet again, it would also be the tiniest of the which would do that, right?

      If it’s not, then I still challenge anybody to tell me exactly what sin or sins would separate us.

      There is no such list my friend, and what you describe is a life uncertainty as to one’s salvation.

      So…the list. And if you don’t have one, I am sorry you feel like you have to live in bondage to works in some desperate effort to keep your salvation intact.

      Like

  11. Hi Wally – good to hear from you again. You wrote:
    “Of course, we won’t find a specific quote where God’s Word says future sins are forgiven.”
    Then I would question why you made that claim since the scriptures don’t support it.
    ” Then again, you certainly won’t find one that specifically says they are not.”
    Rom 8:13 specifically says that IF Christians live according to the flesh, they will die. This verse warns that living according to the flesh results in death; not forgiveness. If you were to claim that the death Paul mentions here refers to physical death not spiritual death, then that wouldn’t make much sense since everyone dies physically irrespective of how we live our lives.

    “We are saved by grace through faith..not of works. Therefore we are also kept by grace..not of works.”
    That would put you in direct opposition to the Apostle James who wrote: “You see that a person is JUSTIFIED by WORKS and not by faith ALONE. Contrary to your claim, both faith and works are requisite for salvation; the latter being the evidence of the former.

    “Now your turn, and honestly Evan you have sidestepped this question consistently.
    Exactly where is the line for flagrant disobedience? What transgression sends on back to hell after salvation? After all, the smallest of sins condemned us in the first place, therefore the smallest of them would revoke our salvation, correct?Exactly where is the line for flagrant disobedience? What transgression sends on back to hell after salvation? After all, the smallest of sins condemned us in the first place, therefore the smallest of them would revoke our salvation, correct?”
    Wally, I directly answered your question on 12/8/15. I suggest you reread that as I won’t take the time or space to respond to the same question. But regarding your anger Wally, only you and God can answer that question. As in everything, let the scriptures be your guideline.
    “If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone who PRACTICES righteousness is born of Him” (1 Jn 2:29).
    “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 Jn 3:14-15).
    “But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire” (Matt 5:22).
    “Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God” (1 Jn 3:21).

    “Example…I tend to get angry easy. Big sin for me. I freely admit it, and The Lord is working that. Anyway, my first reaction upon seeing this argument arise again was anger. It certainly was not justified anger. If i had fallen over dead before asking for forgiveness, would I be in Hell at this moment?
    That is a serious question Evan…what sin. Exactly. If we have to avoid certain thing in order to stay saved, then God will certainly provide the list. That is my challenge to you Evan; where is that list?”
    Based upon the above scriptures and others I did not include, do you think Wally that anger is not on that list? Every single believer needs to die to self, take up his/her own cross and follow Him. For some of us that means putting anger to death, sexual sin to death, lying to death, envy to death, lust of the world to death…the list goes on. The Word and the Spirit convicts us of our particular sins and it is up to us to die to self and our flesh and live according to the Spirit as we rely upon His grace and enablement. We all sin but the pertinent question is whether the sin is occasional or habitual? God cleanses our sins provided that are lives can be characterized as “walking in the light” (1 Jn 1:7). Habitual sin, whether it be anger or any other sins are not automatically promised forgiveness as the fact that we keep repeating and practicing that sin demonstrates that we haven’t really repented of that sin since we keep doing it over and over again. That is why Paul wrote: “First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and DEMONSTRATE their repentance BY THEIR DEEDS” (Acts 26:20). We demonstrate that we have truly repented when our deeds evidence the fact that we no longer engage in those deeds. If we continue to habitually engage in those deeds, forgiveness/salvation is not assured of. May I ask you Wally, just for the sake of argument suppose you believe that despite your persistent anger problem, God will still forgive you and you will enter heaven. What if you are wrong? What if you die and find out that your persistent anger disqualified you from entering the kingdom of heaven? Tragically, It would be too late for you when you could have done something about it when you were still alive. Are you willing to possibly risk something so important as your salvation if you are perhaps wrong? At the very least brother, if you put to death your anger, then you would have lived a more sanctified life giving glory to God. At worst you may be forfeiting your salvation and are you willing to accept that risk if your belief in eternal security is wrong?

    Like

    • Yep..Evan I am absolutely certain that entrance to heaven awaits me…despite the fact that I still get angry sometimes. Because I am saved, not by my compliance with rules, but by God’s grace.

      Again, you have buried your avoidance of the question in a lot of words.

      I shall simplify

      Since the tiniest of sin separated us from God in the first place, does the tiniest of them then yank us away once we believe?

      It’s very simple

      Thanks

      Like

  12. Unfortunately Wally, your response demonstrates that you misunderstand my argument. You chose not to respond or explain away the scriptures I cited which is your prerogative since you choose to ignore them. If you choose to continue in your anger that is your choice also. It is indeed very simple – it is not the “tiniest” of sins that separate us from God – rather it is whether we continue to “practice” our sin that separate us from God. For example, I could tell a little “white lie” which some would consider a “tiny” sin. I told that lie not as a normal practice in my life but I did so on a rare occasion. If I live my life according to 1 Jn 1:7 and am walking in the light because I normally obey God then He promises to cleanse me of my white lie upon confession. HOWEVER suppose that I have a habit of consistently fabricating white lies in my life. Though the sin is “tiny,” I have now made a “practice” of making white lies in my life. Am I not now a liar since I have a habit of lying no matter how “tiny” those lies are? And what does the Bible say of those who lie – do they still inherit eternal life?
    “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. He who OVERCOMES shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and ALL LIARS shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Rev 21;6-8).

    Thus your point about “tiny” sins is irrelevant and moot.

    Like

    • Actually Evan my point is not irrelevant and moot as it is our failure to be able to meet God’s standard of perfection that has condemned us.

      So yes the small sins are the problem along with the big ones

      I am not ignoring your arguments they are simply wrong.

      Why is this something important to you Evan? I usually see this when there is an issue with one human or group of humans wanting to keep others “in line”

      At any rate I don’t think we will see this resolved but I will be in prayer that you find peace

      Like

      • I don’t see an easy resolution with either Evan or Josh either Wally, as all of their questions have been sufficiently answered.

        I have them the benefit of the doubt but have come to think they are here to frustrate and annoy rather than to gain any understanding. I could be wrong about that but I seriously doubt it.

        Regardless, this discussion needs to end before too much more time gets wasted.

        James

        Like

      • Yes, Wally we agree to disagree so this will be my last response as I don’t wish to belabor the point. I don’t know what your belief regarding the rapture is but for the sake of argument, allow me to propose this scenario to you personally.
        My question to you would be given what Rev 14:9-11 states, would YOU (answer what you would do; not someone else or Christians in general) take the mark of the beast? As far as I can determine, you have these 3 options:
        1) No, don’t take the mark because of the consequences spelled out in vs.10-11.
        2) Yes, take the mark since a believer’s salvation is secure and you cannot lose it.
        3) Yes, take the mark as it just goes to show that you were never a Christian to begin with.

        ~ If you choose the first option Wally, it directly contradicts the teaching of eternal security as these verses warn that anyone who takes the mark is eternally condemned.
        ~ If you choose the second option, and you hold to the security of the believer, you are at least consistent in your belief however it directly contradicts the plain warning of these scriptures.
        ~ If you choose the third option, well, that just goes to show the illogical rationale of those who make the claim that those who fall away were never really believers. Wally, you would attest to the fact that you are a believer and if you took the mark you would contest that it is absurd for anyone to claim that you were never a believer to begin with.

        May the Spirit teach and guide you to all truth,

        Liked by 1 person

    • Evan,

      I believe I have answered your objections to eternal salvation. We can agree to disagree on this issue but for you to continue asserting that you are right against evidence doesn’t seem to make sense.

      The official position, and the correct one, of this blog is that genuine Christians cannot lose their salvation.

      There are countless places this debate can be had if you would like to continue to do so it is finished here.

      James

      Like

Trackbacks

  1. My Article Read (10-21-2015) | My Daily Musing

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

%d bloggers like this: